Sweet Smell Race Fuel
I would run 50/50 pump & race gas mixed with Maxima 927 castor oil in my CR500, and the smell was incredible. I also ran it in my 2 stroke snowblower in the winter, never had any issues with separation either (it's reported to separate from the fuel below freezing).
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My car (70T with a 3.0 and Weber 40s) gives off a lovely fuel aroma.My garage is connected to the house and not everybody at home has my refined palate and appreciation for the exquisit high notes of BP Ultimate in gaseous form. With summer approaching I will be reminded of this on a regular basis.Petrol smell is strongest after driving the car but can't say it is really localised to the engine area. Also sometimes smells in the cabin after refueling. After a brief look at my venting system I note that I do have the container in the luggage compartment up under the dash, but no canister in the front left fender. Also not sure what is stock/has changed with the engine upgrade.What would you suggest I look for in which order? Assuming of course there is actually a solution to thisThanks. Chris,My container is still in place.Cam,If you are referring to the breather hose that runs from the tank to the container in the luggage compartment in front of the dash and then the hose from this container to the wheel well I have replaced these.
I guess the container could be faulty which might explain a fuel smell after refueling?Chris/Cam,Any idea if there should be a charcoal canister in the wheel well? Or was that a US thing? Is it possible on a hot day in my garage (it is connected to the house but not air conditioned or very well insulated) fumes could be escaping via the breather hose in the wheel well? Or should I be looking at fuel lines and if so where?Thanks. Your car is probably ex USA as this evaporation system was fitted to US cars.
I had the same problem, your fuel evaporation tank will have lost its 'air tightness' and fumes are escaping. A new one will fix the problem, but you also need to vent the outlet to outside the car. The outlet does go to a charcoal canister but I haven't been able to find one, so just took it out into the wheel well. If you do get onto the correct canisters, I'll get one too. New tanks were available from Porsche.Cheers Paul M. This is the american vent system (which my car had)1 - is empty plastic box2 - is plastic overflow container in wheel arch3 - is metal canister with carbon in it5 and 6 - Are tubes that vent fumes to the air intake in the engine bay - I think one blows air through the system and the other puts the fumes into the air intake for combustion.When I stripped my car the vent tubes had been cut so they both vented into the cabin!I am interested in alternatives as I do not want to install all these things back into the car - the wheel arch container is a rust spot (trapping mud etc.
Against the metal) and the rest adds weight.Does anyone have a nice neat/light alternative to all of this?
Like stories like this? You’ll see every article as soon as it’s published by reading the print edition of Grassroots Motorsports.From the start, race fuels are typically cleaner and more consistent than pump fuels. The reasons why are due to economics and environment.Pump gas is a product largely driven by cost, and standards allow a certain amount of agents that over time can cause gum and varnish. Since a tank of pump gas is usually consumed fairly quickly, the presence of those agents is rarely noticed by the consumer. Race gas is produced for a more exacting consumer, so quality and consistency become the driving factors. According to Zachary J. Santner, Jr., Technical Specialist for Sunoco Race Fuels, race gases start with a base product that, in rough figures, can be called 10 times cleaner than its street-bred counterparts.
A tangible benefit of that cleanliness: Race fuels are a lot more stable and can be stored for at least two years without any noticeable changes.Then there’s consistency. As per EPA standards, pump gas formulas vary based on season and location.
A winter-blend fuel, for example, is formulated to produce quick starts in cold weather. During the summer months, though, that winter fuel would lead to increased emissions. Altitude, local air quality and other factors can further affect the blend, and the end result can be dozens of variations for just a single brand and grade of fuel. Race fuels, Santner continues, are consistent. They come from one source, and the formula never changes. Running race fuels simply eliminates one variable from the equation.Like stories like this?
You’ll see every article as soon as it’s published by reading the print edition of Grassroots Motorsports. A real eye opener was when I had a car on the dyno and it made 565whp on the dyno ( @25psi), which was way out of my pump gas experience power-wise, and the person who was holding my hand through this new experience said 'Oh yeah, with C16 you'll be able to pour the pistons out the oil pan before you run into detonation.' Later, I street tuned a different, bigger turboed car on C16 that made 730whp (@23psi).On E85, that same engine/turbo combination made 810whp. 10% more power on E85 than 'race gas'.$18/gallon and eats plugs and WBO2s for C16, or $2.50/gallon for E85 and sensor/plug friendly. Decisions decisions. Let me think.
Note: C16 exhaust smells 300% better than the noxious crap that is E85 exhaust. If it weren't for the plug fouling issues, I'd run C16 in my lawnmower just for the fresh cut grass plus race gas smell.For pump gas we used to go across the corner to the Sunoco where they had 94 octane. I run my Mazdas on 87 and I run my VWs and Volvos on BP 93. The Sunoco 94 smelled. The exhaust was 'sweet', kind of halfway between proper leaded race fuel and generic stuff. It's a shame they don't sell it anymore.Anybody who says leaded fuel has no place in the 21st century doesn't recognize the EXTREME efforts made before and during WWII, when any and all avenues for knock resistance were explored, because more knock resistance meant higher boost pressure available for fighter aircraft, which were almost universally supercharged/turbocharged to the point where knock was the ultimate power limiter, even at altitude.
Allied engineers experimented more with fuel compounds, German engineers experimented more with water injection and nitrous oxide. (Some of the best prewar water injection data comes from Ricardo, however)Most of what we know today about detonation-resistant fuel compounds dates to frantic research in the early 1940s. We use tetraethyl lead as a fuel additive because extensive testing showed that it freakin' WORKED.
(As did, I believe, triptane, which I undertstand has a knock index in the 260 range) My GUT feeling is that it is the toluene that makes the 'race gas' smell. But what does it know? Your gut is full of sh.
Knurled, it's obvious you know your stuff. Hot Rod ran an excellent article a while back on the history of ethanol as a fuel in America. Long story short, it was mostly a matter of money greasing the right wheels in politics, which enabled tetraethyl lead to become the primary anti-knock additive here in the US. If you really wanna read the article let me know and I'll see if I can find a link.Toebra, lead as an additive in fuel makes for fantastic knock resistance.
However, it has the whole toxin thing going for it too. Totally makes sense that your dad would run a mix like that.My Supra puts out just shy of 500whp on 91 octane with anywhere from 10-15% ethanol in it, since you can't get ethanol free in most places, and E85 would be a terrible choice for traveling, even if you could get it.
Next step for me is likely installing the water methanol setup, and seeing if we can crack the 600whp barrier with the same turbo I have on now. Said:Anybody who says leaded fuel has no place in the 21st century doesn't recognize the EXTREME efforts made before and during WWII, when any and all avenues for knock resistance were explored, because more knock resistance meant higher boost pressure available for fighter aircraft, which were almost universally supercharged/turbocharged to the point where knock was the ultimate power limiter, even at altitude. Allied engineers experimented more with fuel compounds, German engineers experimented more with water injection and nitrous oxide.
(Some of the best prewar water injection data comes from Ricardo, however)Most of what we know today about detonation-resistant fuel compounds dates to frantic research in the early 1940s. We use tetraethyl lead as a fuel additive because extensive testing showed that it freakin' WORKED.
(As did, I believe, triptane, which I undertstand has a knock index in the 260 range) My GUT feeling is that it is the toluene that makes the 'race gas' smell. But what does it know? Your gut is full of sh.I don't think I would go that far- back in WWII, it was all about performance and winning a war, effects on human life over the long term was not even considered. Now that we know the long term effect on lead poisoning, especially when put airborne, it does illustrate that for the 21st century, TEL is a bad idea for the market. There's been enough development in physics and chemistry to understand what knock really is and find better solutions than TEL for octane boost. Brian13 said:In reply to Knurled.:That's all good stuff about the 20th century.
Technology has advanced since then, and we've also realized how stupid some practices (such spewing lead in exhaust) are. Today, even Formula 1 runs on unleaded gasoline.alfadriver's comments on this hit the nail on the head.Technology has advanced to where we don't need as much detonation resistance in the fuel to get suitable performance. For one, we don't need 120+ octane gasoline for automobiles day-to-day.
(Some of the aviation fuels were rated to 140-150 but a lot of those numbers were a lot like treadwear ratings.)For two, we run our military equipment on something around kerosene-like thanks to jet engines and turbines and Diesels. The military even has Diesel powered dirtbikes, because fuel commonality.
Sweet Smell Race Fuel Pump
We don't NEED to try to eke out more power from overstressed piston engines prop planes. Which is a lot of why fuels science sort of died out after the 1940s, when jet engines started to come into play. Wspohn said: te72 wrote:Shame that race fuel isn't available in more places, at the pump.
Understandable, absolutely, but still unfortunate.But why? It burns more slowly, yes, but if you can't take advantage of thar because you don't have high enough compression to need it, nor a 'hunt forward' igniion timing set up, it won't do you any good.We get good unleaded 94 octane with no ethanol here at the pump, and I can't imagine needing aything else.All about your specific setup bud. I could easily crank out another couple hundred horse out of my setup with the right fuel. It's the difference between 20psi and 35psi. Trouble is, the only places I know of that sell it, sell it in cans or barrels. Most of where I do my playing are at tracks that are nowhere near local to me.Basically what I'm getting at, is it would be fun to be able to travel, fill up on race gas near the track. I don't drag my car behind me, I drive it to where I want to play.
Consequently, I'd have to stick a few cans of the stuff in the hatch in order to run a track session. Not exactly convenient. As a result, I make due with pump gas and just deal with the lower power output. Wspohn said: te72 wrote:Shame that race fuel isn't available in more places, at the pump. Understandable, absolutely, but still unfortunate.But why? It burns more slowly, yes, but if you can't take advantage of thar because you don't have high enough compression to need it, nor a 'hunt forward' igniion timing set up, it won't do you any good.We get good unleaded 94 octane with no ethanol here at the pump, and I can't imagine needing aything else.Why do people keep saying that? Octane rating has no real bearing on flame speed, especially in a very turbulent flame area like in an engine's combustion chamber.Octane is more a measure of the stability of the molecule before a flame front passes through it.
High octane means it can take a higher temp/ higher pressure/ longer time than low. So it won't just come apart on it's own in a very sudden way (the sound you hear is sound waves bouncing off of surfaces due to flame speeds at Mach 1- which is not what you want). Alfadriver said: wspohn said: te72 wrote:Shame that race fuel isn't available in more places, at the pump. Understandable, absolutely, but still unfortunate.But why? It burns more slowly, yes, but if you can't take advantage of thar because you don't have high enough compression to need it, nor a 'hunt forward' igniion timing set up, it won't do you any good.We get good unleaded 94 octane with no ethanol here at the pump, and I can't imagine needing aything else.Why do people keep saying that?Because they read it on the internet.
Wspohn said:If you are running a turbo engine with two different programs, what bout ethanol containing gas? Have to check injector flow but that would allow you to run two different programs with two different fuels. Rjstanford said:E85 also keeps things cool since you have to / can run a lot richer.I'd say that the biggest difference though is that nobody is ever happy with the ethanol content of their pump gas if racing - its either too much or too little depending on which camp you're in:)Hooray alcohol for lowering IAT's!Ethanol really is one of those all or nothing things if you ask me. If you're going to bother running it at all, may as well use a high concentration of it, and tune to extract the power it can provide.
If you don't want to use it, may as well use zero ethanol gasoline and extract the BTU's for the mileage it provides. All about the right tool for the right job, right? I read once, written by someone who seemed to know his chemistry, that the energy density of ethanol is much less than that of ordinary gasoline, so when running pure ethanol your fuel mileage would suffer substantially, like 25 or 30% less. On the other hand, since ethanol has an oxygen molecule already built into it, it doesn't require as much oxygen (air) to burn it (convert it to carbon dioxide and water), so you can, and indeed must, run a much richer mixture. In a piston engine, this means that you don't have to pump nearly as much air through the motor to burn ethanol. Another way of saying this is that for the same amount of air you can burn more ethanol fuel so that in a properly set up motor you can usually generate more power on pure ethanol although at a stiff penalty in fuel mileage. Any chemists out there who can verify this?
Iceracer said:I run seasonal gas in the wrong seasons in my lawn/snow care machines without problem.Again, the internet has exacerbated this.Exacerbated, sure, but there is seasonal fuel around the country. What sucks for car people are the handful of areas that put VERY summer fuels in pumps (as a non-attainment area patch), and it gets below 40F. Cars are a bitch to start in those cases. But that's pretty rare.If I were the dictator, really would specify a very tight package of fuels around the country, instead of having a huge variety of blends.
FE, emission, and driveability would get better if there were only a handful of blends. More octane than you need is not a good thing, it can cause incomplete combustion. In a low compression motor over time can cause combustion chamber deposits and lower mileage.There are concerns besides just octane, Reid Vapor Pressure, specific gravity are a couple of the biggies.Reid Vapor Pressure is why Av Gas is not recommended for the street.The specific gravity changes the fueling requirements.Off the shelf octane boosters are a joke, You can't significantly change 15 gal of gas by adding a quart of anything that is legal to distribute 'over the counter'. Each type of fuel is blended according to its intended use.AvGas has high octane, but most of its additives are to prevent high-altitude gas line freeze up and gum up.
Not to make added power. Not a great choice for street or race cars.E85 is cheap, makes power, but gives horrible fuel mileage. Ask anyone who has tried it.Race fuel's high octane allows engine builders to use higher compression and tuners to advance timing further. That's what makes more power.All ECU's can retard timing to prevent detonation (knock). Your modern car can make more power with race fuel IF your ECU also permits timing to advance when higher octane is present. Many cars, and most all modern high performance cars will do this.Race fuel costs more because (1) its additive package is more expensive, (2) its blended in much smaller quantities, and (3) its distributed in smaller quantities.Where to buy?
Use the fuel finder at. Bentwrench said: alfadriver said:In reply to bentwrench:No, high octane fuel will not cause incomplete combustion. Poor quality fuel will, but not octane. That myth needs to end.Why then did dyno testing show higher than needed octane produced lower power levels?Probably because it's a different fuel blend. Octane, by itself, is not an indicator of how fast it burns, but an indicator of how stable the molecule is to spontaneous break down- the higher the better. Once a flame front hits it, it will react like low a low octane blend of roughly the same thing.Some of the cheap ways to get high octane don't have the same energy content as other fuels.
Brian13 said:In reply to Knurled.:Again, all good stuff, but not very relevant to the use of leaded gasoline in this century. Formula 1 does not use turbines or diesel engines and does not run on diesel fuel or anything like kerosene. F1 does use very highly stressed spark-ignition piston engines.
Without needing lead.They also don't have traction control or ABS, but that is not because it wont make them faster, it is because that is what the rules say. They used to run a toxic fuel but they changed the rules for safety and environmental concerns. Just like they limit the amount of fuel they can burn in a race and the max flow, because they think that acting green will make people overlook the 100 jets that they use each week to transport all the cars, gear and crew to each race.I used to race a 2-stroke 250c GP motorcycle that ran only leaded fuel. You could get head inerts that were made for unleaded, but you gave up a lot of HP and invited detonation. In reply to Rusnak322:I get the point that F1 uses unleaded fuel in part because of the rules, rather than not wanting lead, but they still produce massive power from small heavily-boosted engines with the unleaded.
Best Smelling Race Fuel
Even where the rules allow lead, it isn't needed. Unless you can think of an example of an auto racing class in which lead is allowed and engines produce more power (per displacement) for 90 minutes at a time than F1.I'm sure that GP bike is a classic. Current MotoGP/Moto3/Moto2 bikes run on unleaded, but everything else about the engine rules is different, too. A reality of motorsports is that no series offers a fair comparison of engine designs or fuels; we'll never know if a modern engine in the same class would need lead.You'll need to log in to post.